What a suprise that the American people want someone to fix the massive problems that our country has, but they don’t like paying for those fixes. That’s what’s *really* been wrong with a huge amount of the GOP policies of the last 8 years…it’s all “gain” with no pain.

“This ‘Tea Party’ is a distraction from the real issues organized by those who caused those problems to be begin with.”

Exactly…I couldn’t have said it any better!

“Democracy and freedom are not synonymous.”

Charity’s (and much of the rest of the Right-wing’s) “apprehension” when it comes to democracy is well-know at this point, and I’m trying to be nice here. The fact is that the “big, bad govt.” is a merely a group of citizens just like you & me. It really is nothing to be inherently feared in the long run IMO.

“And Freedom Works, which is being called the ‘corporate sponsor’ of the tea parties, has been hammering on this stuff for years.”

No, it really hasn’t. They haven’t said one, single solitary word about the hundreds of billions of dollars that has been overspent on futile Wars like the one in Iraq. They spend more time whining about earmarks, which are down both in numbers & in total cost under the Democratic Congress. FreedomWorks is well-known for conducting numerous “astro-turf” initiatiuves, and this is just the latest (and apparently most popular) one so far. They are nothing more than yet another Right-wing, “supply-side” economic hack website…who last I heard has shut down the comments on their blog right before the 2008 election because they were being hammered “too hard”.

“I find it intriguing that most conservatives don’t oppose cutting spending in the one area where we are most obviously spending way too much money. We’re still funding defense as if we’re in the cold war. The amounts of money we spend on defense are obscene and much more than what’s realistically needed to defend our national interests.”

Exactly, and you’ll never hear a peep from much of the Right-wing on this. It’s called being pennywise & pound-foolish…

“Why did we have companies that were too big to fail?”

We shouldn’t have let that happen, and now we have the opportunity to correct that sitaution from ever happening again. A lot of the mergers that the govt. allowed to go through in the past should have never happened in the first place.

“Why did we have massive deregulation that led to massive fraud?”

Because the GOP (along with certain key Democrats to be entirely fair) wanted that massive deregulation in the late 1990s so that their buddies in big business could make some quick bucks…at everyone else’s expense of course…

Democracy and freedom are not synonymous. Democracy is a form of government; any form of government can be free or oppressive, or anywhere in between.

Good point. Would you agree that, of all forms of government (or lack of government) that have actually existed, democracy is the form of government that has proven to be the most free?

Anytime the government is regulating or otherwise controlling any activity we experience individual constraint in choice or action. The more the government is involved with, the less freedom we have. It actually is a fact.

If the government controls activity, it should only be towards the goal of freedom. Paradox A: if everyone were truly free no one would be free. Am I “free” to kill someone if I don’t like them? Absolutely not! That would take away someone else’s freedoms. Paradox B: It is necessary to restrict freedom in order to preserve freedom.

The only thing in dispute is how much freedom we are willing to sacrifice in return for having things done by the government. The amount of freedom I am willing to give up would no doubt be a lot less than you, but more than an anarchist or full-fledged libertarian.

I am only willing to give up as much freedom as is necessary to keep everyone free (e.g. regulations on banking to make sure people aren’t defrauded). We’re actually not as far apart on this issue as you may think. You may find this surprising, but I actually really like a lot of the anarchist’s ideas (specifically, federated small groups).

Our Founding Fathers knew that a democracy can be just as tyrannical as a dictatorship. That is why they placed limits on the government’s power – limits that are no longer adhered to.

Which limits are no longer adhered to? All of the examples I can think of started many years ago, so it’s a bit odd that people are just starting to complain now and are focusing their complaints at Obama. People should be complaining, but a little perspective and thought about where this anger should be directed is in order.

I didn’t include defense spending because that is a legitimate function of government, enumerated in the Constitution, and this post is about the government doing things it is not supposed to do.

Really? I find it intriguing that most conservatives don’t oppose cutting spending in the one area where we are most obviously spending way too much money. We’re still funding defense as if we’re in the cold war. The amounts of money we spend on defense are obscene and much more than what’s realistically needed to defend our national interests.

Honestly, I do not even know where to start with this. Without the government, how can anyone take away your rights? The law protects your rights. Corporations cannot take away your freedom.

I admit this point was a bit off-topic in this discussion. I’m talking about the ever growing power of corporations over our lives (aided by the government). For example, one or two corporations pretty much control everything we eat. Again, this is probably a whole other discussion: I was simply pointing out that there are bigger threats than just, “the government.”

We shouldn’t be giving them money. That was what the protesters were saying (before and after the bailouts).

My main point is that the anger should be directed at those who got us into the situation where we “needed” (yes, we could debate this) to bailout these companies. Why did we have companies that were too big to fail? Why did we have massive deregulation that led to massive fraud? Why wasn’t the news media exposing this fraud?

Are you saying we become less of a democracy the bigger our government gets?

Democracy and freedom are not synonymous. Democracy is a form of government; any form of government can be free or oppressive, or anywhere in between.

If democratically electing our law makers made us free by the nature of the fact that we can choose to not re-elect them, we would not need our Bill of Rights. Our Founding Fathers knew that a democracy can be just as tyrannical as a dictatorship. That is why they placed limits on the government’s power – limits that are no longer adhered to.

Are you saying everything our government does (on our behalf through our elected representatives) takes away our freedoms so therefore our government should do less?

Yes.

Merriam-Webster.com defines freedom as, 1: the quality or state of being free: as a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action

Anytime the government is regulating or otherwise controlling any activity we experience individual constraint in choice or action. The more the government is involved with, the less freedom we have. It actually is a fact. The only thing in dispute is how much freedom we are willing to sacrifice in return for having things done by the government. The amount of freedom I am willing to give up would no doubt be a lot less than you, but more than an anarchist or full-fledged libertarian.

Is it growing faster than it has been over the last 8+ years? I doubt it. Why are conservatives only starting to complain now? And, if the real issue is freedom, why didn’t the conservatives stand up against the massive erosion of civil liberties that occurred over the 8+ years?

Well, it is in fact growing at a faster rate than it was the last 8 years. Even by CBO estimates, Obama is spending at a faster rate than Bush did.

But that is neither here nor there. There were plenty of people complaining about Bush’s spending and expansion of government, including me. I didn’t spend so much time on national politics as I do now, but I opposed the doubling of the Department of Education, the prescription drug benefit, and the stimulus checks, to name a few.

I didn’t include defense spending because that is a legitimate function of government, enumerated in the Constitution, and this post is about the government doing things it is not supposed to do.

There were others on blogs and on websites like Town Hall. And Freedom Works, which is being called the “corporate sponsor” of the tea parties, has been hammering on this stuff for years. This is not new. It’s just that more people are seeing the light since Obama has taken government spending to an extreme. (And the GOP is jumping on the bandwagon because they have no other alternative.)

If the issue is freedom, where are the conservatives fighting against the very real threats of corporate feudalism in this country? I’m much more afraid of my rights being taken away by corporations today (yes, with government participation).

Honestly, I do not even know where to start with this. Without the government, how can anyone take away your rights? The law protects your rights. Corporations cannot take away your freedom.

But, we had no choice.

Yes, we did.

And, when we give money to these corporations, we shouldn’t take an ownership stake – we should just give them the money no-strings-attached?

We shouldn’t be giving them money. That was what the protesters were saying (before and after the bailouts).

You said, “Under President Obama and the Democratic Congress, those functions are growing, and growing, and growing, way beyond what conservatives believe a government should be doing.” Is it growing faster than it has been over the last 8+ years? I doubt it. Why are conservatives only starting to complain now? And, if the real issue is freedom, why didn’t the conservatives stand up against the massive erosion of civil liberties that occurred over the 8+ years? If the issue is freedom, where are the conservatives fighting against the very real threats of corporate feudalism in this country? I’m much more afraid of my rights being taken away by corporations today (yes, with government participation).

Yes, we’ll be paying for generations for the bailout. But, we had no choice. And, when we give money to these corporations, we shouldn’t take an ownership stake – we should just give them the money no-strings-attached? I don’t think so. Where’s the anger over what led up to the bailout? Where’s the anger towards the massive fraud and corruption that occurred? Where’s the anger at the lack of government regulation and oversight? This “Tea Party” is a distraction from the real issues organized by those who caused those problems to be begin with.