We’ve had this discussion a long while ago. A lot of what motivates “conservatives” in this counrty is fear of their fellow man, since it’s apparent that they believe that the nature of man is not good at all. So, it would make sense that a lot of “conservatives” would fear their own govt., which is just a bunch of individuals grouped together & working towards a common set of goals. “Conservatives”, in general, champion the individual as opposed to groups of individuals acting together. They tend to view individuls as less of a “threat” to their freedoms.

Based on what? If you want to make accusations, you should back them up.

I think you are, and a lot of other “conservatives” are as well.

“Do you lock your car?”

Not always…same thing with the doors to my house actually. Fear is undoubtably a very powerful emotion, and I try not to let it rule my life.

Do you lock your car? Is it because you are afraid or is it because you like to take reasonable steps to protect that which is valuable to you?

I feel the same way about my rights as you do about your car.

You’re really never going to stop being afraid of govt. are you Charity?? That’s too bad…

According to the American Political Science Association, “Political science is the study of governments, public policies and political processes, systems, and political behavior.”

The government might be made up of people, but they are people who can take away my freedom and ability to choose how to live my life.

In this case, apparently yes. The middle school teacher in question is obviously heavily biased in favor of his far Right-wing views. How much of them he spews upon his helpless students I do not know.

“You only need 6 classes for a minor.”

Not at the university that I went to.

“BTW, I minored in political science, so I guess I know more about government than you do.”

Is political science equal to government?? Nope. BTW, I have actually worked for government in the past, and governments are just made up of people just like you & me…but I already told you that a long time ago…

“if the writers of our constitution really wanted to government to provide all of our basic needs, rather than facilitate our ability to provide them for ourselves, then why is it that the government did so little back then?”

I am not saying (nor have I ever said) that the govt. needs to “provide all of our basic needs”. As to why did “the government did so little back then?” Well, the country was very young back then, and it didn’t have very many resources at its disposal. As I’ve pointed out before, it’s not like the Founding Fathers got the slavery issue right in the U.S. Constitution either.

“I think the problem here is that you apparently believe that in order to teach middle and high school, one must only take middle and high school-level courses.”

I never said that at all…what I said is (the truth) that you do not deal with the kind of complex issues that are in play here in your daily life as a middle school teacher, period.

“Your smarmy little attitude toward my expertise on the subject because I ‘only’ teach middle and high school really shows you what you think of teachers in this country.”

Really?? My Mom was a reading teacher for over 30 years…I have plenty of respect for teachers in general in this country, but that doesn’t mean that whatever a far Right-wing middle school history teacher says is “true” about the U.S. Constituion is actually, in fact, true.

“The difference is that your points will be wrong no matter how many times you repeat them”

Now you’re projecting now…lol…

“If your vision of what our country should be is truly in line with the Constitution, then why do you have to find a right to health care in it?”

Did I ever say that everyone has the “right” to health care in the USA?? Nope. Being in favor of a single-payer system, which would simply cost *less* money in long run, be more efficient, and cover everyone equally does not require that you think that health care is a “right”.

“The Marine Corps is officially part of the Navy.”

LOL…next time that you meet an actual USMC member (either former or current), try mentioning to them that you think that the USMC “is officially part of the Navy.” Just remember to duck ahead of time though…

“Not to mention, this doesn’t stop your side’s slavish devotion to Jefferson’s ’separation of church and state’ phrase to justify your gutting of the First Amendment.”

LOL…Madison had basically the same opinion as Jefferson on the separation of church & state BTW. Once again, so much for you knowing much of anything about history…sheesh…

“The bottom line is that our Founders created a government that was supposed to perform certain limited functions”

…in your far Right-wing opinion only at this point.

“Think about half the stuff you want to foist upon me and millions of Americans – while calling for the confiscation of our hard-earned money to pay for it”

LOL…once again, only on the far Right-wing in this country is taxation considered “confiscation”. It’s actaully just one of the many responsibilities that come with being a citizen of the USA, period.

That’s fine, let’s include the full letter you’re probably referring to (my emphasis):

“You will have learned that an act for internal improvement, after passing both houses, was negatived by the President [in 1817]. The act was founded, avowedly, on the principle that the phrase in the Constitution which authorizes Congress ‘to levy taxes, to pay the debts, and provide for the general welfare,’ was an extension of the powers specifically enumerated to whatever would promote the general welfare; and this, you know, was the federal doctrine. Whereas, our tenet ever was, and indeed it is almost the only land-mark which now divides the Federalists from the Republicans, that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated; and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money. I think the passage and rejection of this bill a fortunate incident. Every State will certainly concede the power, and this will be a national confirmation of the grounds of appeal to them, and will settle forever the meaning of this phrase which, by a mere grammatical quibble, has countenanced the general government in a claim of universal power.” (to Albert Gallatin, June 16, 1817. ME 15:133)

So yes, there certainly was very differing opinions as to Article 1, Section 8.

Look at what you quote from Hamilton (a Federalist, and again my emphasis): ““This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83″

What I want you to do, Chanman, is go to your nearest copy the United States Constitution and count the enumerations in Article 1, Section 8. There’s 18 enumerated powers ONLY if you count “The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;”. By the way, I find it strange that you won’t count the first enumeration as an enumeration … but that’s you privilege … not accurate however.

And (***sigh***) we’re back to Madison. A good modern day conservative who saw government as being there for military might such as taking other people’s land to give it to his people. He was one, and only one, individual in that committee. Hamilton, if your brackets are correct, saw the whole of Article 1, Section 8 … not just 17 out of 18 enumerations; and Hamilton was also a member of that committee.

You can jerk quotes out and throw them around without context all day .. it will never make you correct.

And my final thought on this because I weary of the same tired and faulty arguments over and over and over again: we’re not talking about caring for every individual’s needs. We are discussing one of those areas; such as our sole source of food, water, air and shelter (aka the physical environment); that beyond a shadow of a doubt falls under the paradigm of “general welfare”. And the general welfare is enumerated (in fact in the first enumeration) in Article 1, Section 8.

Because things were just getting off the ground, and societies develop and change over time? I suppose, Charity, you were busy having children and home schooling them when you were an infant.

Oh, but wait … our government was busy providing from the very beginning. Our fledgling government was busy using it’s greatest force, the military, to force one group (those who lived here before the European invasion) off lands so another group (the European invaders) could make personal use of those very same lands. Our government was busy enforcing slavery rights (for the slavers, not the enslaved of course). And things just kinda barreled on from there, didn’t they?

“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” -James Madison.

So this isn’t enough for you? OK, here are a few more from Madison. He is after called “The Father of the Constitution.” His opinions certainly carry a bit more weight than yours:

“[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

And then there’s another author of the Federalist Papers, Alexander Hamilton. Even though he believed in a much looser interpretation of the Constitution than Madison, he still had this to say about the “General Welfare”:

“This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

And then there’s also Thomas Jefferson:

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

Yes, yes, I know, Jefferson wasn’t at the Constitutional Convention. However he did write our Declaration of Independence, was our third president, and closely associated with many of the men who did write the Constitution. Not to mention, this doesn’t stop your side’s slavish devotion to Jefferson’s “separation of church and state” phrase to justify your gutting of the First Amendment. That phrase was also just an opinion and your side has seriously misinterpreted anyway.

So there you go: Madison, Hamilton, and Jefferson. What the hell do they know, right?

One question for you: If the General Welfare clause can be interpreted to mean – as you assert – that Congress can pass a law concerning anything they want, then why did the Founders go to all the trouble to list all the clauses of Article I, Section 8? Read those clauses sometime: they all address the general welfare of the American people; they don’t favor one individual or group over another. That’s what “general” means.

The bottom line is that our Founders created a government that was supposed to perform certain limited functions – defense of our states, relations with foreign countries, and protection of our individual liberties – and it kills people like you and Mister Guy that the Founders’ creation was not designed to play Santa Claus like you desire. Think about half the stuff you want to foist upon me and millions of Americans – while calling for the confiscation of our hard-earned money to pay for it – and ask yourself: Is that really what the founders had in mind when they wrote the Constitution?